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HP Boost for Sub-Super Capitals

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Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:15:00 - [1] There's no real way to properly balance supercarriers. Cost is no real balancing point as making 10b isk/month by updating market orders a couple times a day is quite easy. The real problem comes in the fact that unless supercarriers are 'OP' there will be no point to fly them over a dread. The second a fleet of dreads becomes a viable counter to a fleet of supercapitals then supercaps will be stuck back in the POS. There is very simple reasoning in this line of logic. It's not worth it to buy, equip, field a supercarrier at 8 times the cost of a dread, if a couple dreads can easily counter it(speak in ratio base, not advocating solo supercaps which are gank magnets). The OPs idea of increasing HP is the wrong way to go in 'fixing' the situation anyway. The damage of supercapitals is about double that of a sieged dread which is not game breaking in and of itself. Sieged dreads routinely got instapopped even before the supercap changes. Even a cap fleet as small as 50 dreads can an enemy carrier in a single volley. The big difference between supercaps and standard capitals is their EHP. Supercaps have a lot more staying power and a little more GTFO ability than standard caps. A reduction in DPS would be a step in the wrong direction as the super capitals advantage is reasonable and comes at an aditional cost over dreads(i.e. titans DD fuel costs and supercarriers FBs being destroyable). The HP buff that came with updated supercaps was massive, effectively requiring a cap fleet to kill them if they log off. Any nerf should primarily focus on HP of supercapitals, especially armour tanked ones. P.S. I fly a Nyx.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.27 22:46:00 - [2] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Supercaps have a lot more staying power and a little more GTFO ability than standard caps. P.S. I fly a Nyx. I underlined the part that's just outright wrong. It isn't a little. -Liang Bubbles still hold super caps and they're good for 2 minutes a piece. A couple of well flown suicide dictors can hold down a supercapital fine. Even HICs either bubbles or infinipoints can hold down supercapitals fairly well if well coordinated. The problem isn't tackling a supercapital. It is tackling a supercapital until it dies which is problimatic. This would become less of an issue if supercaps had less HP.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.27 23:39:00 - [3] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 27/09/2010 23:00:14 Two things: - Ewar immunity - Not having to siege A third thing for thought: - Almost none of your counters work in low sec, and are rarely encountered there. Ewar immunity must go. -Liang Ed: Think of it kinda like this: Guys, guys, I need all 15 of you guys to fly hawks for our roaming gang tonight just in case..... Let's do a comparison, shall we. You are suggesting that all 15 members of your fleet should be entirely effective while flying BS. I contend that a fleet of 10 BS, a Damnation, 2 Guardians, and 2 Falcons would be more effetive. I don't think there is any doubt which fleet is more effective. The purpose of this comparison is to illustrate that ship diversity within a fleet is essential to accomplish all the tasks required of an effective fleet. If you can't be assed to bring 3 HICs with your gang of 15 then you shouldn't be able to tackle a supercapital. Apart from the fact that including supercap tacklers in your fleet when you expect to face supercaps is a good idea, there's also the fact that EWar immunity in lowsec was brought up a long time ago. CCP introduced the HIC specifically to counter EWar immune supercaps in lowsec, so you have no argument on that point. As for not having to siege, that is an advantage over dreads, but one that is not game breaking. When supercaps are deployed on structure shoots they are still exposed for prolonged periods of time and, with a decent warpin, still in danger of getting tackled. Granted the whole point of having a support fleet is so this doesn't happen, but it's not like there's not ****ups. The biggest advantage of not having to siege would be for capital ganks, but that requires you get in kill then warp out, and preferably cloak because you sure as hell won't have cap to jump out again for a little while.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:03:00 - [4] Originally by: Irae Ragwan Edited by: Irae Ragwan on 27/09/2010 23:50:24 Devil's Advocate: That doesn't scale up very well when you're talking about a large number of SCs. Which brings me back to the whole "not designed for anything but being OP," theme. I think there is an issue of scale (namely: examples of 100+ SCs being brough to battle are happening already) that is going to upset arguments like that. It scales a lot better when you add in the fact that the only time supercaps have been fielded in that number has been over 0.0 Sov where bubbles are in effect and a single dictor(cost ~35m isk) can tackle 5-10 supers at a time.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 00:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Liang Nuren Someone earlier said something about repurposing super caps away from combat. After some thinking about it, here are some things that would make me fork out for a Hel: - Being able to dock (Required) - Very Large ship maintenance/Corporate Hangar bays (Required) - Build in triage bonus, without gimped capacitor (BIG bonus) - Able to still field fighters (but not necessarily fighter/bombers) - ECM/Damp/Web immunity (Medium bonus) Basically: I want a super carrier, to fulfill the role of a carrier - only better. -Liang This would be even more broken than they currently are tbh. Think of the Aeon. 2 cap energy transfers, 4 capital armour RR which can be perma run because of bouncing cap. That's effective 16 capital armour reps per supercarrier with 8 lows + carrier bonus for resists and 80m EHP which can field 20 Fighters(or around 2000 DPS)each. Oh and they can't be jammed so there's no way to break the spider tank. Did I mention they could do this on a station undock?
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Liang Nuren Wow, you're really really biased, you know that? I suggested that we should be entirely effective while flying nothing but battleships. What Is aid was that we needed to bring ships which have no other purpose than to tackle super capitals. You implied in your statement that all 15 members of your gang would need to be in HICs to tackle. That is most certainly not the case. On top of that, having a HIC with a 26km infini point and a sensor booster offers much quicker and reliable tackle than say a battleship or battlecruiser. Not to mention that tackling a supercap implies you have the method to kill it. Currently you would need around 15 dreads to kill it before it disappeared from logging. I would assume that anyone who has 15 dreads on standby to kill a supercarrier would also be able to field a few HICs for tackle. Originally by: Liang Nuren Are there more or less counters in 0.0 than in low sec? If there are less, does that mean that a super carrier's power (compared to all the other 'fish in the pond') is more or less than when in 0.0? Basically: you're ***ing out of your mind if you think that disabling most of the counters for super carriers in low sec is "ok". I would further point out that HICs cannot be RR'ed while their point is active* and have not been rebalanced since the super capital changes. I added a key piece of info for you. That's why people developed the cycling HIC method. Ideally done with 3 HICs, although manageable with 2. HICs commonly fit 2 points allowing for tackling 2 supercaps with reasonable sustainablity. 2 cycles on, 1 off, where you get RRed and capped up. This way there's always 2 points on each supercap and HICs get repped. I'm not saying that it is not harder(double negative intended); I'm simply pointing out that tackling supercaps in lowsec is not infeasable. The only real counter not available in lowsec is bubbles. While this is a significant disadvantage, it's not an insurmountable challenge, and I suspect any entity capable of actually killing a supercap to be able to pull it off. HICs really shouldn't need to change as Fighterbombers were specifically balanced around capital engagements and left doing pitiful damage to subcaps. Fighters do more real DPS to HICs than FBs so nothing has changed relative to pre-Dominion other than Supercap EHP(lowsec DD removed so not an issue).
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 00:39:16 Originally by: Sarah Norbulk Think of the Aeon. 2 cap energy transfers, 4 capital armour RR which can be perma run because of bouncing cap. That's effective 16 capital armour reps per supercarrier with 8 lows + carrier bonus for resists and 80m EHP which can field 20 Fighters(or around 2000 DPS)each. Oh and they can't be jammed so there's no way to break the spider tank. Did I mention they could do this on a station undock? Who said anything about 20 fighters or millions upon millions of EHP? I was outlining the differences from the Nidhoggur - not the Hel as you know it. -Liang Unless you would independently assign each racial supercarrier a niche the changes would have to be across the board. My assumption that this is what you meant may have been incorrect, at which point I still find the idea OP, but not as insane as I first imagined.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 01:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Sarah Norbulk on 28/09/2010 02:01:10 Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 01:43:51 And ultimately, your "key piece of info" exactly illustrates my point. You claim that SCs have "a little" more GTFO than dreads/carriers, yet a 5 man roaming gang can trivially tackle a dread/carrier long enough to rally reinforcements. A 5 man roaming gang would need to be composed of (by your own estimation) 3 HICs and 2 Logistics to do the same to a roaming Supercarrier. So, you think that your 5 man gang should be able to tackle and hold down a 16b is investment while you're backup, which consists of a a bunch of unorganised loose knit aquaintances tries to wrangle up enough ships to actually kill it. How does that not sound absurd to you. Edit: I also have this amazing thing called a capital alt that happens to fly my Nyx. If you've flown against one of our fleets recently you've likely seen me flying a guardian.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:08:00 - [9] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/09/2010 02:03:01 Then why don't you understand the basics of what's important in your specialized tackle? Maybe its because you spend too much time obsessing over your measly 16 billion ISK pwnmobile. See, now you just sound petty and jealous.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, I'm pointing out how absurd it is for you to tell me about your "16 billion ISK investment". 16 billion isn't that much (< 100 hours of grinding, completely disregarding potential market tomfoolery) and furthermore ISK isn't a license to have a virtually unkillable pwnmobile. AND you didn't answer the question. Why are you so out of touch with sub capital combat as to think its more important to have a HIC than an Arazu? Why should low sec gangs always fly around with at least 3 HICs and 2 Logistics? Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? -Liang Nobody says you have to engage a 'roaming' supercarrier as you put it. They are slow as balls and you can burn out of point range relatively easy. Expecting your 5 man gang to effectively counter any possible scenario is ludicris. Like it or not EvE is a MMO and you need people to fill rolls. I said that if you wanted to go supercap hunting in lowsec the tools are in place for those with the resources and orginization. Ofc, from how you describe the lowsec community it sounds like you reside there because you can't cut it in an actual cooperative environment.

Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 02:53:00 - [11] Edited by: Sarah Norbulk on 28/09/2010 02:54:29 Originally by: Siiee What's absurd is that you think it should be safe. It's the same reason that frigates can scramble battleships. That 7mil worth of meta-fit rifters can tackle a 140 mil isk raven long enough for someone to go grab some dps and slowboat some 30km thru deadspace to get into blaster range. If a rag tag group of loosely affiliated pirates can hold your unsupported supercap down long enough to drum up the dps to kill you, that's just eves pecking order in practice. And if you were supported, and they managed to trash your support before pinning you down and waiting for every rifter pilot within 20 jumps to come ***** on your mail then they outsmarted you and your super-cap kill is their prize. If you actually read what Liang said she said that she wanted to make supercarriers tacklable in conjunction with reducing HP. One or the other would be fine, but removing EWar immunity wouldn't fix proliforation in 0.0 while lowering HP would. It would also make it viable for smaller lowsec entities to hotdrop supercaps. Edit: Quote fail
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Sarah Norbulk on 28/09/2010 03:02:03 Originally by: Liang Nuren Here, let me repeat this for you: Why are you so out of touch with sub capital combat as to think its more important to have a HIC than an Arazu? Why should low sec gangs always fly around with at least 3 HICs and 2 Logistics? Why should SC pilots get a free pass in low sec? Just because its a 16 billion ISK pwnmobile doesn't mean that you should get a free pass. -Liang HICs are superior when engageing under sentry fire. An arazu points an amarr BS under sentries, the arazu will die insanely fast. The HIC can stick around and keep point. Edit: So I really fail at quotes
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Irae Ragwan Small lowsec entities hotdrop supercaps? Also, removing ewar immunity would kill off a -lot- of supercaps that are currently escaping 0.0 skirmishes. Combined with a moderate EHP nerf and they might just be brough in line. LOL. The only thing saving supercaps in 0.0 skirmishes is raw EHP to survive incoming DPS until they disappear from logging. The CO2 Nyx was killed with just 2 dictors and a HIC tackling.
Sarah Norbulk Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2010.09.28 03:27:00 - [14] Originally by: Sig Sour I have a guardian that says otherwise. Just ask Liang, you shouldn't need a Guardian to roam around lowsec.

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